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Howard Evans Registered User
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Crewe
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Front Suspension Phase II |
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Advice please ...........................?
My front suspension appears to be 'original' in every sense of the word and it now hard and creaky and full of stiction. It needs a complete overhaul.
I've read the experience/advice about how to improve the geometry etc., but all I want to do at present is to get the standard setup working to its best potential.
Of course I could just buy a set of club springs and AVOs, but looking at design data from early Triumphs, I would estimate that the weight on the front suspension of the Olympic, is approximately that of the early Spitfire. So, the questions -
Did the PhII use contemporary Spitfire springs and dampers or were they specials to the Triumph patterns ?
Has anyone fitted standard Triumph parts to good effect ?
How do the alternatives compare with the Club offerings ?
This is new territory for me, so any advice would be welcome.
Thanks,
Howard Evans |
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Paul Narramore Registered User
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 181 Location: Aylesford, Kent.
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Howard
The front dampers and springs, although similar to the Spitfire/Herald parts, are unique to the Olympic. |
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calex_fr Registered User
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Champagne (France)
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: |
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One more subject about P2 front supsension ? _________________ Alexandre Contat
from France |
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Howard Evans Registered User
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Crewe
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Gents,
OK Thanks.
So what's the recommendation - buy a set of springs and AVOs through the club or experiment to try to recreate the original condition ?
Cheers,
Howard |
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Paul Narramore Registered User
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 181 Location: Aylesford, Kent.
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well I guess it depends on what you feel about your present front suspension. Wouldn't simply overhauling it give the improvements it needs? A thorough clean up with new bushes from the club perhaps? Check that the coil springs are within spec and that the dampers 'damp', put it altogether and you're away.
Then if you think it's still not right, at least you've got some of the glitches which come with old age, out of the way.
Unless things are clearly utterly worn out, I would go the standard route before considering alternatives.
But then, what do I know? |
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Howard Evans Registered User
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Crewe
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Paul,
Thanks. I think 'knackered' sums the general condition up. One of the dampers is leaking, the other is full of stiction. The front ride height appears to be low so I think the coils are suffering from anno domini too !
I'm sure anything will be an improvement, but I've read the reports about the harshness and short travel of the AVO/club springs. I plan to use the car as a tourer rather than for outright roadholding so I'm looking for a comfortable/refined setup.
The back end which has received so much attention from Les Brown over the years is quite supple and compliant, so bearing in mind that the front is derived from a production car I at least wish to match the rear !
Cheers,
Howard |
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keith hamer Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 312 Location: Ellesmere Port
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Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Can't help agreeing with Paul, a simple complete overhaul of the front wishbone bushes, trunions, and top joints wont go a miss. Rochdale Motor Panels spent a lot of time getting the cars to where they wanted them, as some will know we have spent almost as much time trying different things, my current thoughts are 'what's so wrong about the original car' after all it's lasted this long without too much trouble.
We are just down the road from Crewe, if you fancy a cuppa and a look at 7 other Olympics in various states of restoration e/mail me on keith@scholar-racing96.com and we can arrange a visit. |
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Howard Evans Registered User
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Crewe
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: keith@scholar-racing96.com |
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Hello Keith,
Thank you for the offer which I would be pleased to accept. When would be convenient ? Also, do you have a source of replacement 'standard' front PhII springs and dampers ?
Thanks,
Howard |
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keith hamer Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 312 Location: Ellesmere Port
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:33 am Post subject: |
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I work 6 days (mon-sat) a week sometimes 7, any time during normal working hours is OK with me.
Sorry we don't have a source for std ph 2 springs and dampers. Most of our work tends to be on phase 1's.
My instinct would be to use the club stuff, alternatively an adjustable rate AVO with adjustable spring seat. We have used these on several 'specials' and currently have them fitted to our race cars. If your springs arn't actualy broken they would probably still be usable. |
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CAPTAIN LES Registered User
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Dewsbury
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Don't do it Howard!
Sorry, I didn't see this post till last night, but all the bushes, etc were changed for club items early on in my 'tenure'. Like you, I was struck by the suspension's harshness (though the back was much the worse in this respect). I did ask Dave Collings if the car had always driven like this (several times!) and always got a veiled 'well, you expect a sports car to have harder suspension...' but the problem was that I (and you, apparently) expected better. I was never too impressed with the front end geometry, and while handling ok the steering was always (VERY) heavy and the ride clashy, if that's a word. Replacing the original rubbers with the nylon types gives more control of the movement, but I certainly noticed no improvement whatsoever in fitting them. I did get the impression that the original rubbers had perhaps a little more compliance ("give") which allowed things to work more smoothly. It's always difficult to get to the bottom of these things, but I do know that Dave had had problems with his front subframe, and commissioned a special item to be made by local 'engineers' original Rochdale types being unavailable by then. I think he said they used the original as a pattern, and the car was off the road for over a year before they got round to making it. How accurately was it done? The rear end had major problems with the trailing arms fighting each other for control as they worked on their own seperate paths, and new (harder?) bushes only made this worse, not better. Is the same sort of thing happening at the front? It was nothing like as bad, so I didn't get round to another look, seeing as it WAS working. There looked to be a heck of a lot of negative on the wheels, rather more on one side than the other if I remember. I had thought of getting it all checked for alignment, suspect the news wouldn't be good, though! Shockers could be a good place to start, don't think I replaced the ones it came with and they must be overdue by now. Front springs are clearly different from Spitfire items - you WOULDN"T expect the same here, the Spitfire is a heavier car and carries its engine much further forward than the Olympic does, so I would expect front end loadings on that car to be MUCH higher. But I wasn't aware of the shockers themselves being different - is this correct? I have never fully understood the Rochdale philosophy on suspensions - if a major manufacturer, Triumph in this case, has components that work well in mass production, then why not use them? The Spitfire carries the arms, shockers, springs etc in a turret arrangement which takes care of most of the problems. Why a couple of these were not used is very difficult to understand - I have just done several hundred miles in my (GT6 chassy'd) GT and have to say that the overall ride quality is streets ahead of the Olympic's. AND it's on Spax shockers, which I have always thought OK. Not brilliant on longevity, but neither are the AVO's - I think that's the third set on CTO at present, Howard. I believe Ron Collins designed and made up a few Olympic subframes which made use of Triumph off-the-shelf parts, and I would certainly be thinking along those lines if I was doing major work. Or does the Rochdale design work better if it's accurately aligned? I really don't know, but I'm pretty sure that new bushes aren't the answer.
Les |
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Howard Evans Registered User
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Crewe
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Les,
Good to hear from you and thanks for the advice. My late father in law had a Triumph Herald which I drove in my teens. Generally the Olympic steers in the way I remember. I used to refer to the steering wheel on the Herald as the 'influencer' as it seemed to be a means of inputting intention rather than having direct control ! Similarly I thought the car handled a bit like a 'pendulum' in that having made an input via the influencer, it was as though there was great mass somewhere behind that then had to catch up ! The Olympic is very nostalgic in that way.
I now have the genuine Stanpart overhaul kit which comprises rubber bushes ball joints, trunnions etc., so that's a good start. I've already decided to have some new springs made in line with recommendations elsewhere in the forum, with a stiffness/length optimised for comfort. Taking the Chapman line of soft springs/firm dampers I'll go for a pair of early Spifire types and see what happens !
Regarding the subframe, I could take the plunge and pursue one of the new Club jig built ones, but that's a lot of work for potentially no benefit. As tyre wear is even (unusual on the Herald with the tight lock) I don't think things are too bad, but who knows ? I'll inspect everything carefully when I strip the front end down.
It'll probably be a couple of months before I can do any of this as I'm just recovering from another fight with the 'old enemy' and am a little sore at present !
Hope all is well with Pat and yourself. Do you still have the GT ?
Thanks,
Howard |
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CAPTAIN LES Registered User
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Dewsbury
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Howard
yes, thanks we're both fine. I had similar thoughts on the subframe - if it ain't broke... and there were always so many other little problems to solve. But you must be getting pretty near now? Standard rubbers sound like a good idea, and I think I remember doing at least one of the trunnions. As you say, tyre wear seems reasonably even so it can't be that far out. Perhaps the shockers could be the main culprit? - "stiction" again. I'd be inclined to match up to the AVOs at the rear, even at the rate they seem to wear out at. For an item using so many Triumph parts, it's surprising how different the Rochdale version ended up, with different castor, camber, and, of course the dreaded anti-dive. But did it work better? Prototypes may have done, but by the time the legendary Rochdale build quality cut in I'm not so sure...
Yes the GTs still with me, just did a 374 mile round trip for the Burford show. Will be posting more on this once I remember how to get the photos up! It's been growing on me, I've been amazed at how many prefer it to the Olympic, but its equally amazing that there was only 4 years between the designs. It's so narrow! Don't really like having those big lumps of iron underneath me, but there's no denying the ride quality here - it really is very good indeed.
Hope the old enemy is under control!
best wishes
Les |
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keith hamer Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 312 Location: Ellesmere Port
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: Rear end |
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Just read through the last couple of posts, and noticed there was a mention about the rear end of the car. The back of a standard phase two (In my humble opinion) has some major problems, not least of whick is those huge radius arms. If you think about it the big (effectively) box section arms, tied into the body and axle very firmly can only have the effect of making the rear axle into the biggest anti roll bar you have ever seen.
If you consider this a bit the realisation that the rear of the car isn't producing as much (if any) lateral weight transfer to the front wheels, this I suspect will have the effect of making the car understear.
Jason and myself have worked hard on his car to eleviate some of the problems this raises, to this end we have fitted a spherical joint to the front of the radius arm, this seems to be working quite well in Jason's case. The car went to Classic Le Mans end did 3 parade laps of the circuit, also several thousand miles there, back and traveling around France for a couple of weeks.
We now have the car booked in at Anglesey for a proper shake down track day, so we will see how the whole thing handles then.
Unfortunately Jason's car is a phase 2R which meens that the front end is Riley and not much of a comparison for a Triumph phase 2.
If you like I can offer you a morning in the workshop to check over your current front geometry set up. We have the facility to check camber, castor, KPI and tracking, this will at least give you a basis to work from. |
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Rodsmith Registered User
Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 187 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Keith, that sounds interesting, but how long will a spherical joint last, on a road car ? I assume it is a "rose" joint, or have you used something a bit different?
Rod _________________ " Stay lucky " |
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keith hamer Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 312 Location: Ellesmere Port
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Yes we have used a 1/2" x 1/2" UNF rose joint. In my experiance even on a road car they will last reasonably well as long as you use a good quality teflon joint. If they are maintained there isn't any reason why the joint shouldn't last a couple of years, and they are easy enough to change once work.
On the subject of maintainance I feel that 'moderns' are not doing us any favours as we are all tending to forget how to grease joints, oil hinges etc. and lets face it if your not a 'baby boomer' you probably have never seen a grease gun let alone used one.
Yes you can use a Rochdale as everyday transport but you do have to maintain them. |
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