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Olympic Gold 682 NDV Restoration

 
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Elliot Richards
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Joined: 31 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Olympic Gold 682 NDV Restoration Reply with quote

Hi all

So I am the proud new owner of 682 NDV! I have read all the posts on here from some of the previous owners. Thanks to Roy the previous owner for helping with the purchase and storage before we collected it.

So the car looks quite sorry for itself, and looked quite sorry for itself back in the 80s when it was last spotted in the wild. Its a Phase 1 with a Phase 2 boot (with terrible handles) and currently comes without an engine. It has various attachments on the car back in the 80s, such as rally lights which won't be going back on.

It looks like it has had various engines in the past, from a 998cc Ford engine, to a 1.5 Ford Crossflow.
As its never really had one engine in the past, I was thinking of fitting the more modern Ford Ecoboost 1 litre engine, which can produce around 150hp and weighs very little. Still staying within the Ford family, as close to the 998cc engine as listed on the V5.

My first question would be - whats the maximum engine height which could comfortably fit into the engine bay. The ecoboost is quite tall (I think at 65cm height) so would like to know if anyone has more insight on this?

The garage who are doing the restoration are going to test mount an engine, before moving onto sorting out the bodywork. I am outsourcing the restoration work as I am currently based overseas, but home is in East Anglia.

I have started a post on Piston heads to spread the word about the Olympic to a wider audience so will update both here and there with build udpates (with the more specific Rochdale questions here)
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Barrie Jones
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to following your restoration Elliot.

Personally I'd think very carefully about using Ford's 1 litre Ecoboost engine. Investigate it thoroughly, it's had a very poor reputation and has cost Ford considerable sums in compensation.
I suspect many of the problems have by now been cleared up - there was a substantial recall after pressure from a Face Book Group of over 3000 unhappy owners.

On a purely historical note and not wishing to appear pedantic, the 998cc Ford engine listed as the original would have been the 997cc, OHV three bearing crank engine as fitted to the Anglia 105E. A whole 39 BHP at 5,000 rpm, however the engine achieved huge success (much modified) in Formula Junior. (plus others). Arguably Cosworth's first work of art. Other tuners also supplied, most achieving around 115 BHP in 'screamer' form.

I expect Tony Stanton might have the figures but I believe that not too many Rochdales were supplied with the 997cc engine and one at least was supplied mildly tuned by Harry Ratcliffe of BVRT. (Harry Ratcliffe and BVRT - worth Googling :- http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/brt_history.html

The 1.5 engine would have been the pre crossflow 1498cc (sharing its block with the Lotus Twin Cam), crossflow engines debuted in 1100, 1300 and 1600cc or: 1098, 1298 and 1599cc.

A 1600cc Ford (Kent) crossflow engine fits under the Rochdale bonnet with no modifications, although using the original pressed steel, paper air filter housing on a downdraught carburettor might be a squeeze.
Block heights are easy to find online but overall engine heights not so, I'm sure a Piston Head group member would happily supply you with the required dimensions.

Best of luck with the rebuild.
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keith hamer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: olympic Reply with quote

I would also echo Barrie's comments re the ecotec engine, my own lightweight was fitted with a 997cc Cosworth blackhead in period, the current crop of historic Formula 3 cars are running the 997 and some are getting towards 120BHP at 11,000RPM.
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Elliot Richards
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks both Keith and Barrie.

The decision is certainly not 100% at this time for the ecoboost. Its valuable seeing what other options are out there from both the 997cc blackhead to more period correct engines.

Theres even a good chance it will not fit, as they are quite 'tall' engines.

As I am not currently with the car, does anyone know the measurement of this part of the car - whats the max height that the Olympic could reasonably accomodate in terms of engine?
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Dave-M
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Location: Yorkshire, England

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: gold Reply with quote

Elliot, Welcome and thanks for the link to your build thread on pistonheads.

In answer to your question

(My first question would be - whats the maximum engine height which could comfortably fit into the engine bay. The ecoboost is quite tall (I think at 65cm height) so would like to know if anyone has more insight on this?)

The distance from front of the cut out of the engine bay floor to the bonnet is around 610 to 620 mm. This point is where the front of the Ford engine is located. The distance then increases nearer to the bulkhead. If the engine sump projects below the bottom of the engine bay this amount can be added to the above dimension, so it looks like it will fit ok.
My understanding is that the engine you are proposing is a 3 cylinder unit and if this is so the high point of the engine will be more rearward so I would say it will fit with no problem.
I can post some pictures if the above is not clear.
One thing to note is that these dimensions are from my Phase 2 but I am pretty sure they will be the same for the Phase 1

One question I would like to ask you is, What gearbox do you propose to use with this engine?

Regards Dave
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TonyS
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Elliott and Barrie,

Barrie, I am happy if you are pedantic, I am Mr Pedantic I like the Archive records to be correct.

Now, 105E,s in Rochdales, this is not a question with an easy answer. The Archive has 264 Olympics on record. 16 are shown with a 105E connection. 7 are orders in the ledger for a bodyshell for a 105E,
but as we have no more information on these Olympics they could have any type of engine fitted by the Owner. Of the 9 known, one was registered in 1962, but we have no record of the Olympic till 1985
when it is shown as fitted with a 105E engine, so we do not know if this is the original engine.

Yes, Barrie I nearly forgot your Phase II Olympic was supplied new with a 997cc Ford engine. In 2014 I spoke with the original owner John Bradley and he told me his Olympic was a complete kit and was almost fully built by RMP.
He had a 105E because it was more economical. John was an AVRO apprentice with Harry Ratcliffe and had the Ford engine tuned by Harry.

Even 682 NDV is not straight forward. It was ordered as an "A" type Bodyshell, this is for a BMC A-Series engine not a Bodyshell for the Ford 105E (the BMC engine has front mountings for the engine, the Ford has side mountings for the engine.)
The Bodyshell was delivered in November 1961 and registered in April 1963. That is a 17month build time and also the Phase II was in production in 1963, so does this mean the owner sent the car back to Rochdale
to have the rear hatch and the Ford side mountings fitted? or did he order the parts and fit them himself? I have spoken to owners 2, 3 and 4, but I have not managed to trace the 1st owner yet to ask him these questions.
Also for the records, the V5 may show the colour as Gold the factory ledger shows the colour as Vellum, a soft Yellow.

Regards, Tony.
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Elliot Richards
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: gold Reply with quote

Dave-M wrote:


One question I would like to ask you is, What gearbox do you propose to use with this engine?



Thanks Dave for the measurements, this is very useful. Currently I am not sure of which gearbox to use as I have read that not many will fit to the ecboost without the use of an adapter. I was leaning towards something more modern but open to suggestions. If you have any suggestions on what you think would be appropriate, let me know.

TonyS wrote:


The Bodyshell was delivered in November 1961 and registered in April 1963. That is a 17month build time and also the Phase II was in production in 1963, so does this mean the owner sent the car back to Rochdale
to have the rear hatch and the Ford side mountings fitted? or did he order the parts and fit them himself? I have spoken to owners 2, 3 and 4, but I have not managed to trace the 1st owner yet to ask him these questions.
Also for the records, the V5 may show the colour as Gold the factory ledger shows the colour as Vellum, a soft Yellow.

Regards, Tony.


Its had a colourful history it seems. From reading the ROC magazine from the link you provided on Facebook, it was even fit with a periscope at one point and was used for Rallying.

Build progress: The garage has let me know that the body needs extensive fibreglass work which is not unexpected - we are going to test fit an engine and components first, then the body will go off to a specialist to be repaired before components are put back in again.

On a separate note, my dad was telling me how one of his friends had a factory tour back in the 1960s, as they looked to buying one. They passed up on the purchase, but we are asking to see if he took any photos (and still has them).
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TonyS
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject: Olympic Gold 682 NDV Restoration Reply with quote

682 NDV in transit from Ireland to Yorkshire. Stopped off in Scotland for a Whisky?.



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Dave-M
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: gold Reply with quote

Thanks Dave for the measurements, this is very useful. Currently I am not sure of which gearbox to use as I have read that not many will fit to the ecboost without the use of an adaptor. I was leaning towards something more modern but open to suggestions. If you have any suggestions on what you think would be appropriate, let me know.



Elliot, To give you an answer to the above is a little difficult and will take some time. If you can be patient for a few days I will try my best to give you some sort of answer as I really need to sort this out for myself as well.
I will, in the reply, include some factual dimensions which are going to be important because due to the unique design and the small physical size of the Olympic could cause lots of difficulties with the engine / gearbox swap.
I'll get back to you soon.

Regards, Dave

P.S. Did your dad have any Photo's or memories of his factory visit
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Elliot Richards
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Joined: 31 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Olympic Gold 682 NDV Restoration Reply with quote

TonyS wrote:
682 NDV in transit from Ireland to Yorkshire. Stopped off in Scotland for a Whisky?.



Well spotted! Must have been thirsty work traveling all that way!
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Elliot Richards
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: gold Reply with quote

Dave-M wrote:
Thanks Dave for the measurements, this is very useful. Currently I am not sure of which gearbox to use as I have read that not many will fit to the ecboost without the use of an adaptor. I was leaning towards something more modern but open to suggestions. If you have any suggestions on what you think would be appropriate, let me know.



Elliot, To give you an answer to the above is a little difficult and will take some time. If you can be patient for a few days I will try my best to give you some sort of answer as I really need to sort this out for myself as well.
I will, in the reply, include some factual dimensions which are going to be important because due to the unique design and the small physical size of the Olympic could cause lots of difficulties with the engine / gearbox swap.
I'll get back to you soon.

Regards, Dave

P.S. Did your dad have any Photo's or memories of his factory visit


No problem Dave, I am in no hurry at the moment, still weighing up options and would value your input.

For the factory photos, we are still finding out, will let you know if we find anything.
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Elliot Richards
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: gold Reply with quote

Dave-M wrote:

I will, in the reply, include some factual dimensions which are going to be important because due to the unique design and the small physical size of the Olympic could cause lots of difficulties with the engine / gearbox swap.
I'll get back to you soon.

P.S. Did your dad have any Photo's or memories of his factory visit


I have found out the elusive engine measurements of the ecoboost:
Dimensions (mm) H x W x L 667 x 580 x 625
It would be smaller with a dry sump, but there are no dry sumps available unless you go to forumla ford territory...

After much thinking, the 1.0l ecoboost simply has too little aftermarket support. The ECU itself costs 1500 pounds, which is before the engine (another 1500 pounds) plus the modifications, and labour etc etc. Simply too expensive, and I don't want to end up modifying the bonnet to make it fit. It would feel like too much of a test bed for others cars in the future, where I get to make all the costly mistakes for others to learn from. If I were doing this myself from home then it would be fine, but as its a garage carrying out the work, its not economical.

Its back to the drawing board. Another option is the 660cc Suzuki turbo engine, currently used in the Caterham 160 (their 'slowest' model). This has good aftermarket support, and can easily link up with diffs and gearboxes without too much hassle. Plus its a lot less expensive and gets a reasonable 80hp.

As for the factory photos - unfortunately none exist - he didn't take his camera with him!
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Elliot Richards
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here are some close up images of the bodywork as it sits currently;



















All in all, it needs an awful lot of work. Its cracked, with holes, filler and all sorts of hidden treats.

In other news, an engine has been secured. Its the Suzuki K6A engine from the Suzuki Cappuccino - a turbocharged 660cc engine with around 65hp. With a few minor changes, it can get around 80 - 100hp. It will be delivered to the garage next week and test fit so that all the holes for the engine mounts can be drilled before going for the bodywork.
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keith hamer
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: engine Reply with quote

Elliot,

I would urge caution changing the engine type in your Olympic, why not go for a Ford pre crossflow or crossflow engine, the aftermarket support for these engines is massive and they can produce good horsepower if that is what you are after. Having worked on the best part of 50 Olympics over the years you have plenty of other issues to consider in the rebuild without adding the complication of an untested engine/gearbox combination.

Simply completing the restoration of an Olympic is a herculean task as anyone who has undergone the trauma of a rebuild will confirm.
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